ewx: (Default)
[personal profile] ewx

This article, about a women demonstrating that biometrics can be faked (although she got caught in the end), reminded me of this one, which ought to be trotted out any time anyone suggests using fingerprints to protect anything even slightly valuable.

(I read that fingerprints don't match between identical twins, so the other obvious objection to the immigration control system using fingerprints might not stand.)

(no subject)

Date: 2009-12-08 12:50 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] hoiho.livejournal.com
There's also the fact that many manual labourers - brickies, for example, don't have any usable fingerprints, as they are simply worn off.

(no subject)

Date: 2009-12-08 06:46 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] hilarityallen.livejournal.com
Also older people and Asian women often don't have usable fingerprints, which means you can fall foul of equality legislation.

(no subject)

Date: 2009-12-08 01:08 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] cartesiandaemon.livejournal.com
It's interesting to see that faking fingerprints HAS become common.

I remember security used to be something of a choice between "nothing", "a little, enough to incentivise a casual maelfeasor to go somewhere else" and "a lot, enough to make the weak point somewhere else in the system", but fingerprints managed to introduce a layer worse than nothing, "enough to incentivise a casual maelfeasor to chop body parts off with a machete".

I think Schneier said if you want anything approaching sensible security you should assume your fingerprints are public knowledge, and ask if the system makes sense in that case.

(no subject)

Date: 2009-12-08 01:10 pm (UTC)
fanf: (passport)
From: [personal profile] fanf
Isn't it possible (and much cheaper!) to fake fingerprints using a layer of latex or glue?

(no subject)

Date: 2009-12-08 01:19 pm (UTC)
ext_8103: (Default)
From: [identity profile] ewx.livejournal.com
Perhaps their immigration officers are already trained to look for that l-)

(no subject)

Date: 2009-12-08 02:04 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] armb.livejournal.com
It's certainly possible to defeat many sensors like that:
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2002/05/16/gummi_bears_defeat_fingerprint_sensors/
http://www.engadget.com/2005/12/11/play-doh-fingers-can-fool-90-of-scanners-sez-clarkson-u/
(And http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20051212/110218.shtml has a comment from someone who did it with latex)

But as ewx said, it might be harder to fool the immigration officers watching.

(no subject)

Date: 2009-12-08 02:45 pm (UTC)
fanf: (Default)
From: [personal profile] fanf
I was thinking of a layer on top of a real finger, not a whole fake finger :-) The silly putty plus latex method sounds like a plausible way of doing it.

(no subject)

Date: 2009-12-08 04:47 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] armb.livejournal.com
I was assuming that too, but it probably wouldn't be trivial to make such a layer both robust and inconspicuous.

(no subject)

Date: 2009-12-08 02:41 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] bellinghman.livejournal.com
One of the more interestingly prophetic aspects of the film Gattaca is that of attempting to do biometric identification using a blood sample DNA scan. As the fingertip is applied to the sensor, a tiny blood sample is taken from it.

The trick? A false fingertip with not only the fake fingerprint, but with a tiny sac of the real person's blood under it.

(The title GATTACA itself is a reference to an arbitrary DNA sequence.)

(no subject)

Date: 2009-12-08 03:28 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] k425.livejournal.com
(The title GATTACA itself is a reference to an arbitrary DNA sequence.)

And you don't want to know how far through the film I was before I made the connection!

(no subject)

Date: 2009-12-08 03:31 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] bellinghman.livejournal.com
You and probably the majority of the rest of the audience.

(At least, I hope that's the case, otherwise I feel dumb too.)

(no subject)

Date: 2009-12-08 03:39 pm (UTC)
ext_8103: (Default)
From: [identity profile] ewx.livejournal.com
It took me a while too l-)

(no subject)

Date: 2009-12-08 05:09 pm (UTC)
lnr: Halloween 2023 (Default)
From: [personal profile] lnr
I needed someone else to point it out.

(no subject)

Date: 2009-12-08 09:41 pm (UTC)
pm215: (Default)
From: [personal profile] pm215
Yes, this Yomiuri article mentions near the bottom somebody using that trick. The other hole in their system is bribable immigration officials...

(You could argue that since Japanese immigration control is more about public demonstration that foreign workers are being kept out than actual security, it doesn't matter that they use a slightly dodgy biometric system :-/)

(no subject)

Date: 2009-12-08 03:08 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] pjc50.livejournal.com
Also via Schneier:
http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2009/11/30/the_top_10_stories_you_missed_in_2009?page=0,6 (getting a real passport with fake documents still works)

(no subject)

Date: 2009-12-08 05:22 pm (UTC)
ext_78: A picture of a plush animal. It looks a bit like a cross between a duck and a platypus. (Default)
From: [identity profile] pne.livejournal.com
Also, you can't (easily) change your fingerprints if someone gets hold of them.
Edited Date: 2009-12-08 05:22 pm (UTC)

(no subject)

Date: 2009-12-08 08:09 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] sweh.livejournal.com
Sure you can; it only costs 9000 pounds according to the first article :-)

(no subject)

Date: 2009-12-09 12:25 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] cartesiandaemon.livejournal.com
Hello, is that Barclays? Thank you. I recently changed my fingerprints: can you update your database for me?

(no subject)

Date: 2009-12-25 10:21 pm (UTC)
From: (Anonymous)
As a retired Forensic Crime Scene Investigator, I would like to tell you that even identical twins fingerprints do not match. DNA examination would indicate no difference since they shared the same fathers DNA and the mothers fertilized egg which split would be the same.

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